Full transcript
Maxim Baldakov:
Welcome back to the Fraud Intel series. I’m your host, Maxim Baldakov, head of fraud and financial crime solutions at Group-IB, covering Meta Region. Today with us we have Julian Laurent. Julian, thank you so much for coming. And to kick things off, could you please tell us a little bit about your background, about yourself, and most importantly, how did you end up in the fraud prevention industry?
Julien Laurent:
Yes, yeah. Well, Max, thank you for having me. Uh yes, I’m Julian Law. I’m the senior product manager uh for Group-IB for cyber fraud intelligence. And uh yeah, I mean the background, well, 20 years in fighting fraud, you know, it’s been a while. So uh I started my career in financial crime at LexisNexis for for quite some time. Then I had the privilege to move to Swift when I was uh head of uh financial crime and compliance solution for the Central Eastern Europe region. Um and I was there for a few years and we did some really exciting stuff, but then uh I got given the opportunity to to come to Group-IB about four or five years ago now. I’m not sure, time flies. Um and it’s been a ride, right? Because we’re now moving fast, like as an institution, move fast, keep up. Um, so yeah, that that’s my journey to to this table.
Maxim Baldakov:
I see, I see Julian. Um 20 years seems like a lot of time. Um you must be you know really excited about what you do. What keeps you motivated to keep going?
Julien Laurent:
Uh two things is that we’re never bored in what we do. Oh, yeah. Because if you want to keep up with the the threat actors and and the fraudsters out there, what you thought was the the rule book last week is gone this week. They they change, they are down. And we often speak about that, but you know, I think you and I experienced that that sometimes we still have customers, but still believe that they are facing one guy in his mom basement. Yeah, yeah. When I actually, no, no, no, these guys are super organized and it’s super specialized, they’re selling services, they’re advertising services in dark forums and telegrams channels, or what have you, any kind of social media really that we can use. Um, but we see them I’ve seen some that they’re using the same marketing strategy that’s some big giant advertisement. I don’t know how to say the name here, but you know what I mean, right? We have different package, support package. Yeah, it’s it’s fraud as a business. So that’s I think what really keeps us going is that you always challenge, always uh how do you react, how do you anticipate what we’re doing, how do you predict what we’re gonna do next? It’s very exciting.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah. Um, talking about the uh fraudster organizations, I heard a story once that uh one of this uh one of such network of of fraudsters and scammers got so big they even got uh an HR department, you know, working for them to make sure the the the benefits are you know the the progression in their careers uh are there. It’s uh it’s crazy to see.
Julien Laurent:
Uh you know, it makes me smile, but incentive I should not be smiling, right? It’s it’s very concerning. Uh I mean we we did I did a conference a few years back with uh with the FBI at a convention, but they were showing entire scam centers in Jacob and buildings dedicated in places when they because they are in some countries are not necessarily collaborative, they they can’t actually, even you know they’re there, there’s there’s little you can do. Um and and I saw the story that once in a previous career where um there was a a call center uh that was a scam call center uh where the people working there, they believed they work for the bank. They had employment contracts that looked like the bank, and and the office was on brand. But like the point that it was on brand is that my colleague that was working for the bank when we were looking at this case, uh that person told me, actually, yeah, the latest logo, my current office doesn’t have the latest logo yet, right? And it it goes it shows the deaf because what they the reason they did this is they realize that if someone truly believes they’re trying to help someone, they’re gonna be more convincing on the phone.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, absolutely.
Julien Laurent:
So they thought, okay, I’m gonna do that, I’m gonna make these guys believe that they’re here to help. So when when you get them on a phone and the person really truly believe they’re trying to help you, from a social engineering point of view, it’s very powerful, right? So I think the lesson is there’s no limit. These guys will stop at nothing to to to get going.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, because uh from their perspective, it’s a lucrative business, right? Uh you can get literally rich overnight uh by uh conducting some of the scam operations. Um you mentioned a very important uh topic uh in your career. You used to work at Swift, right? Could you please tell us a little bit more about uh this time of your life and um how do you see the threat landscape uh is different and what does it have uh in common with uh what we do now?
Julien Laurent:
It actually has very little in common, right? In a sense where at Swift we were looking at institution to institution. So uh it was always like protecting bank, like when you’re fancy, protecting the castle, as you call it, right? With different layers, different layer security. And and the the level of sophistication that you will have to be able to go nowhere near that is immense. And that’s probably why you never hear in the news like the bank system got compromised and someone managed to steal the money of the bank because they’ve done an incredibly good job in securing both the payment network on the Swift side is this is as bulletproof as it can be, and then on the bank side, the way to access it is also like incredibly secure, and that’s why we see a lot more of activity now moving into fraud. Like again, when when we work with the the FBI, they they were indicating that many large criminal organizations that previously might have been to drug trafficking or um moving money for terrorist reasons, they’re not moving into fraud because it’s relatively low cost. Yeah, and yet you can move an incredible amount of money because again, the bank, for example, have done a very good job to stop international payment between institutions that are sanctioned or listed that you know to stop the money. Yeah, so now they’re generating the money wherever they need it by running scams and these kind of things.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, yeah, by localizing their operations. Um Julian, I wanna uh ask you a question. So it seems like this um uh I would say institution to institution uh fraud landscape is uh pretty much minimal because the defenses are pretty much uh already well structured, the ecosystem is built, right? Uh it’s uh pretty well defended. Is do you think it’s possible to achieve that same level of um I would say fraud prevention maturity in the retail banking? Like we’re talking about you know any any time frame, uh five years, ten years, fifteen years. Do you see that happening one day that uh there will be a moment of time when uh you will rarely hear about the you know successful fraud case or or scam case for regular individuals?
Julien Laurent:
Yeah, absolutely. Right? So, you know, if you look back at the journey of the banks when they started to try to really control uh uh terrorism funding and imposing sanctions, it didn’t happen overnight, right? Yeah, but then eventually it got so hard to try to move for classical network that they had to adapt. And I think the same thing is happening with fraud now. Um so if you look at the the typical, like kind of like oldish method of account take over malware, trying to get access and control your your your payment in order to drain your bank account. When we look at the stats, the more solution like ours, fraud protection, and the work that your team is doing with local analysts that understand the local landscape, the local fraud type, the more these doors are closing, the harder it gets for them to perform this kind of activity, the more they’re switching to different method, right? So I think I mean you you can tell us a word or two about that, but if we think of like um non-authorized uh payment, I think it’s fair to say that when you see the result of you and your team, it’s becoming pretty hard to be successful in this company.
Maxim Baldakov:
Uh yeah, actually, uh we did notice uh significant shifts in the fraud attempts. Uh uh, as you correctly said, we we call it unauthorized fraud attempts. Majority of fraud is now moving to uh APP or authorized push payment fraud, right? So we are definitely seeing that that uh change change uh in dynamics. But um just want to add a small comment on on what you previously mentioned. I think the fact that we live in in the in the environment where this institutional level fraud is pretty much non-existent is because of the a lot of hard work that has been done in the past. And I think uh the people that work in the industry they sometimes don’t get enough credit because it feels like you know, uh you you take it as a granted, right?
Julien Laurent:
Uh yeah, yeah, for sure. It’s you know it’s something which is not you you don’t advertise this thing because it’s not sexy to the consumer. Exactly. You don’t go, hey, look at my compliance officer. It’s not something you’re gonna get on uh the Super Bowl advert. Uh let us talk to you about our compliance officer. But yeah, it’s been it’s been uh thousands of people that dedicate their life to stop financial crime, and and I think often for those people it’s quite personal, right? Is they’re not just doing it as a nine to five job because it’s not nine to five. Yeah, right. And and to go back to your question, how you stay motivated, uh, and without sounding righteous, I think you need to have a desire to make a difference and to feel like your work is helping. Because here institutions they insured, you know, if there’s money living, it’s sure it’s not great for shareholders, but usually it’s a quite solid institution. Yeah, here what we’re doing is we’re looking at guys in the street, uh the people you cross every day in your life, people for whom you lose their savings, it can have a drastic effect on their life, it can really put them in a very difficult situation. So it’s a different level, like a human connection on what we do, because you’re not talking about an entity somewhere that is massive. You you actually can impact people’s lives. Exactly. It’s something that feels good in the morning when you know sometimes it’s early, the stupid o’clock flight, or yeah, and and you know that you you luckily, if you’re lucky, you’re gonna make an impact on people’s life.
Maxim Baldakov:
That’s yes, you’re doing it for a reason. Absolutely. Um, talking about uh authorized push payment fraud, right? So uh why that shift is happening, I I wanna ask you a question, but just provide a bit of background. For example, why frauds are moving towards this this uh form of uh scam, uh this uh form of uh fraud is because in case of authorized uh fraud operation, right? It pretty much uh I don’t want to say it’s easy to catch, but there are some really strong indicators, right? Like unusual location, device, you know, uh like big red flags. In case of um APP, authorized push payment fraud, uh it is the customer himself that is doing the transaction, you know, he’s uh he’s convinced he’s making a legitimate transfer, you know, it’s a legitimate device, location, you know, even can be typical time of the day for his uh day-to-day activities. Um how what what is your uh vision in stopping such sophisticated level of fraud uh and stealthy level of fraud? What is your uh over here?
Julien Laurent:
And that’s the thing, right? They realize that these things are not working anymore, and more and more we’re getting better at stopping them taking accounts, but they we’re not about to just fold, said, Okay, we’re out of business, I’m gonna get a regular job now. Yeah, these guys, so then what we’re looking at is that unfortunately there’s overopening. Uh so APP throughout the big difference is like you said, they are the one making the decision. So the normal way for us to look at it, it doesn’t work because it’s the right person. Yeah, and and then in their mind you say, okay, how do I convince someone to give me money? Well, it’s social engineering, right? So it’s Roman scam, uh, investment scam. So investment scam, like so. Unfortunately, uh geoeconomics plays a role in there. When when times get harder, when there’s a period of downturn in economy, there’s more people that are getting worried, desperate, and they’re more likely to fall for something, but normally they might not. But if someone is harder, they’re struggling with money, which is where there’s a perversity thing with what these guys are doing. Someone is struggling to pay the bills, they’re more likely to lose critical thinking when they receive some promise of like crypto is booming. You can give me some money on this fake platform, they invest on a fake platform, the platform looks like their crypto investment is going up and up, so they put more money, more money, but they don’t know that this is just smoke and mirror. That money is long gone. And the day they try to get the money out, sorry, buddy, it was a fake thing. It’s gone.
Maxim Baldakov:
So, what’s what’s the general approach? What’s the next uh the the next approach?
Julien Laurent:
And you see the regulators out there. Uh, when we’re looking at APP fraud, the problem is we are we live in a world of instant payment. Money, you give money to a fraudster, it’s gone in a few seconds, it’s been layered between multiple accounts, and within an hour it could be abroad in another country where uh some countries are not collaborative, you’re never gonna see that money back. Uh, and so the big challenge currently is to stop APP fraud, you need to work in real time because payment is real time. Yeah, however, the problem is it’s currently a legal framework when it comes to privacy uh rules that are here to protect people, uh so GDPR and so on, here to protect your privacy. There are some strict restrictions to say that although you’re supposed to be able to share to stop fraud, you need to be fairly certain you’re sharing something which is definitely fraud-related. So currently, we handicap is that you can only share data for confirmed fraud. Um, because even if you use uh some existing cryptography system like uh hashing, hash can be re-identified. So if I have a list of victim accounts and a mule account that I know, yeah, you transform that into hash and you can do what’s called like a rainbow table and you can re-identify it. That means that the privacy is not respected. So the big challenge for the industry is they get told by regulators, financial regulators, you must share information to stop APP because the only way is to be real time, to identify with account very quickly before the money’s got time to move. But they are facing the world of privacy. So it’s something we realized a few years back. And so what we did, we we worked hard on that, and uh, and I must give my hat to our home genius, you know, Pavel Krylov, which is like uh our might science. And he he created uh and we have patented this at Group-IB, uh, what we call the distributed tokenization. And we had this validated by Bureau Veritas, uh, that it is GDPR compliant because our token oval, we have a formulation that makes that it doesn’t matter which bank is querying about the data to say we think that bank details is suspicious to get some context from other bank. Because the weakness of this scam, they run in numbers, right? Is you email as many people as you can to try to get the money.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, it’s a scale economy.
Julien Laurent:
That’s it. And that is the weakness because then the bank will have some doubt about that transaction because bank are, you know, they’re doing a good job. Yeah, it’s just that they are stuck between creating friction for client in order to investigate and uh frustrating the client. They cannot afford to block any payment that kind of raises some level of fraud. Yeah. But here, what we are doing is we are providing this tool that allow them to work together because the scam is running on high scale, they will be overbanked, but I also have some flag about it. And sharing that information with each other means that now they go from uncertainty to certainty on the ones that are being used by Mule Network. Because when a mule can get activated, you suddenly get a lot of funds that are coming. And I don’t know about you, but I never wake up with strangers sending me money, right? I mean, if anyone wants to send me money, um, but it there are signs, but this sign usually in classical method, by the time they share it, by the time it is legal to share, it’s too late. But now, because we created that token that allows them without any exposure to GDPR to do this check with each other, and all they’re sharing is a risk associated, they ingest it into their own system, and they can go from uncertainty to certainty and focus on those and let the overpass. That is a big revolution for the industry. And so we’re launching it very soon, uh, and we’ve we’re very excited about that. We obviously worked already with uh we have one central bank with whom we’ve worked when results have been very promising, that they help us get off the ground with this, and we have other technological partners uh with whom we are working, like AWS in some other area. So we’re excited on the impact we’re gonna have to help people, not just the industry, but also the people behind it, the people that are currently at risk to lose their life savings.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, yeah, but it’s uh very exciting. So just if I were to summarize it, right? Uh according to what you said, to stop APP fraud is the most I would say effective way, you see it through information sharing on mule infrastructure or on frauds infrastructure, right? That’s that’s uh real time.
Julien Laurent:
At the end of the day, if you want to stop them because we understand, like our study showed that when the a scam is starting to run, when it’s activated, it starts a campaign, yeah, and and fraud starts happening within two hours, only 20% of fraud are reported within two hours.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, I saw the statistics, yeah.
Julien Laurent:
Right. And and and and it gets crazier because people are busy, they they run a busy life, right? So when you look at it, after 24 hours, it doesn’t even reach 60% of fraud being reported. And and this is the start on fraud that gets reported. Because the thing with APP, often people don’t report it.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, they don’t understand because they’re ashamed.
Julien Laurent:
Nobody be ashamed. They got food and they think you know money is gone anyway. Why do I need to embarrass myself to admit that that money was stolen, right? So if it’s money they can afford to lose, they take it. Well, it depends on the again, on the amount of money that’s but it’s enormous game, right? So when you are able to share the suspicion in real time and get enough information to identify this mule account, mule network, how are they connected by sharing information with the bank? And at the moment they only share a token, right? So it’s not people’s data, but once there is enough proof that there’s a connection, they can then investigate internally. So they know where to where to look. Because we are talking millions and millions of transactions every day. Yeah, it’s a needle in a head stack, and without that critical information, you don’t know which needle you’re going after.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, yeah.
Julien Laurent:
And that’s what we’re doing. We’re zeroing in on where we should spend their resources.
Maxim Baldakov:
Uh I spoke with one of our cyberfraud team lead on a previous episode. Um, and we uh the the topic of discussion was exactly the meal accounts. Um I think what you said is 100% correct because um you saw our fraud matrix, right? With all the tactics, techniques, and so on, phases and so on. If you look at it from you know from the high level, you will see that there is every every week there is a new tactic when it comes to let’s say end-user interaction, or it comes to you know deception or or you know uh defense evasion, something like this. So majority of the innovation from the fraudster side comes at the earliest stages of the cyber photocle chain. But when it comes to monetization and cashing out the money, all of this innovation converges the like three or four techniques in general. That’s right.
Julien Laurent:
And it’s actually how we get to that, right? Because we created the four matrix about two years ago when we started to analyze, and then you lay out the different techniques they are using, the tools they need to be successful in this scheme. And then that’s where we saw APP fraud, whether it’s Roman scam, investment scam, there’s always that same weak point. Find the Mule account, stop the Mule account, the scheme collapse. And and what we’re looking at now is to see these guys, it’s not cheap to set up this mule account. They have to put a lot of effort into them, and we see how much they sell KYC past account on the dark web, an M forum. We know that it costs them a lot of money to be with infrastructure. So when you’re able to react within the first one or two victims, and we’re talking 40 milliseconds currently where we launched it, right? 40 milliseconds, you share information between bank to Tebem. There’s a strong indicator that that’s a mere account. And you shut down that mule account before they they can even make them investment. There’s a satisfying thing for us, is that these guys spend all that money trying to plan this, and when they press the launch button, they they hope they’re gonna run for a few days, make some money, and when you can shut them down within minutes and destroy that infrastructure make that infrastructure they develop useless, it’s quite satisfying.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah. Um look, I think since we work with this on a on a daily uh basis, it’s not very uh impressive to us. But if you kind of uh zoom out and look from the third party perspective, man, it’s crazy what kind of infrastructure uh and and technologies we have in place. Uh talking about this this uh central bank project that you implemented, there are like more than 50 banks connected to the system, right?
Julien Laurent:
Yeah, 50 banks, four payment rails, because it’s it’s lightweight, right? We provide this microservice that they put in the environment and then it’s completely flexible. Today we are talking about APP fraud, but in reality, it can be used for KYC. You can check is that phone number being used by multiple people? I mean, my daughter had a mobile phone number before she had a bank account. So if you see now in modern days the same mobile phone being used for multiple bank accounts, it will flag. Now fraudster knows that they can’t use the same mobile phone with the two identities in the same bank, but they also know that banks cannot communicate that data with each other.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, yeah.
Julien Laurent:
But now you can. So if it’s a mismatch, and again, we’re looking at token. I don’t need to know your mobile phone. Just a token that says that mobile phone is showing up in different databases, but the token that shows the name associated is not the same. Doesn’t make sense, yeah, right? Because I mean, we uh maybe in some countries, but most countries you don’t share your mobile phone. Yeah, so the the in reality, the more we work with this technology, every day we see some new use cases we can do. Uh in in the US, we have conversation about loan fraud, burst out fraud. I mean, I could geek on about what we can do with that for days. So to answer your earlier question, the next five years is guaranteed excitement on how we can bring new things to the market, makes it even more difficult for these guys to be able to make a living out of that. Um, and and hopefully save a lot of people’s savings in a way and protect some life, which is I know it sounds grandiose, but yeah.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, I I definitely see it within reach. Uh as you correctly said, uh, it it is possible. Look, we already uh have uh confirmed cases, uh uh yeah, confirmed studies where we pretty much you know stop unauthorized fraud. Now uh the the the question is uh how do we stop scam, how do we stop APP, this kind of stuff. And you provided already a blueprint on on how to do that.
Julien Laurent:
Well, we right. I’m I’m lucky that I get to be here to talk about it today. There’s a lot of people behind that are working hard to build this, so I’m just I’m just a figurehead that get lucky to to get to show off what we’ve done. But uh trust me, my friend, there is many people that deserve uh a lot of glory for that. But it it’s exciting, right? It’s exciting to to see that we we can make an impact. And and as much as what you’re doing every day already is having an impact, I think what we are doing with the cyber fraud intelligence platform is is a the is hyperscaling. So the cheeky thing is that I’m trying to create the the Swift of the anti-fraud, the way Swift has been amazing to make payment. Yeah, I’m dragging that into this when I’m hoping we can we can create the equivalent in fraud, like a very systemic system that can help nations stopping fraud.
Maxim Baldakov:
Um honestly still boggles my mind. Uh you mentioned this uh case where we deploy this solution in one of the central bank in one of the region. Uh like you mentioned more than 50 institutions, you know, fintechs, uh, payment system providers, all of them are pouring you know, millions of transactions per second. Uh and you have some solution that processes all of that in real time and identifies link with confirmed fraud, you know, suspected fraud, mule accounts, you know, some some other things. It’s um I I I don’t want to brag, but uh sounds like rocket science to uh to be honest. I think uh the the guys uh at our technical site did did some miracles there.
Julien Laurent:
Yeah, do you know? No, I’m gonna put myself, I’m not gonna look good out of this, but when Pavel first explained to me the technology is beautiful, it took me days to understand.
Maxim Baldakov:
It took me weeks. It took me weeks to understand. Well, exactly, right?
Julien Laurent:
And I was like, come on, you know, I’ve got a master’s degree in engineering, I can do, I can work this out. Um but and but once you understand it, you you’re like, wow, yeah, of course, it makes all the sense in the world, right? And so um, and that’s why we we went to a third party to get it validated because often when we sit down with bank, we’re like, guys, it’s been a problem for so long. How come how come it’s suddenly fixed, right? So that’s why we use the third party to to really say it’s not just us, it’s not just the PowerPoint, here it is, and uh, and it’s exciting. We see the reaction of the industry now that they see the proof. We see more and more that are talking, like, let’s do a POC. Uh just yesterday I was talking to a great audience of CISOs, of very big bank, and and these guys, they’re so smart, right? Once you once you’ve done that proof of concept, you gain the right to show them what you could do, and you can see this brain. I’ve learned two more use cases I didn’t think of yesterday, talking to these individuals. So, you know, like thank you to them. Uh, but yeah, now we’re excited. Uh the the future is bright with this on how much we can help. Um, but obviously, as we are now working on deploying this, make it real. We already had our mind scientists thinking, okay, what other guys are gonna do once we do this? Because for sure we can’t let our guard down. We now have something and there’s some prediction to make on where we’re gonna move after that.
Maxim Baldakov:
Oh, yeah, definitely. They’ll f I’m pretty sure they’ll find yet another way, sneaky way to to still.
Julien Laurent:
But the next generation is here. As I’m growing older and gray hair, I could uh I know that uh I have colleagues that will take the flame.
Maxim Baldakov:
Julian, talking about the new generation, uh as a seasoned veteran, do you have any advice for people who want to start in the industry? What qualities do they need to have? What do they need to, what kind of traits they need to have to be successful in in the field?
Julien Laurent:
Do you know that’s a that’s a great question. I think let me think of that for a second. Um I mean there is an incline of technology you need to want to learn, right? Oh yeah. It’s if you’re not someone that when you see something, it doesn’t interest you. But if you’re the type of person that when you get something, you want to take it apart, see how it works. That’s exactly what we do. Because you really you you look at them, you reverse engineer what they’re doing. But once you reverse engineered it, like we did with the fraud matrix, you can then find a weak spot and laser focus on it. Yeah, uh but again, I think it’s you need to believe in the mission because it it’s long days. Oh yeah, yeah, and and so you need to really have that uh that fire in your gut of doing something which is a bit bigger than yourself that you you you can hopefully with working with your colleagues have a real impact. We said it a couple of times in the in the podcast, and it’s that’s really what it comes down to, I think. Because it will be hard. These guys are smart. They are time when uh it’s not always like we are now taking a victory lap. Sometimes you really struggle to see how can I stop them. Uh so yeah, I would say you know, you need someone that have perfect perseverance, really believe in what they’re doing for when the day gets tough. Uh but someone that can take a victory, you know. Yeah, once in a while you win, and then you need to take five minutes to appreciate that you win. That you did something great, celebrate, enjoy that, recharge the battery so to see tomorrow’s challenge.
Maxim Baldakov:
Uh, if I were to add just a couple of cents to what you said, I would say that you also need to be open-minded and stay humble. Because you know, I I personally seen a lot of unfortunate cases where people would uh come with with some level of experience in the industry and they think that they know how to solve this uh this particular uh problem, you know, because they had pre prior experience in a different industry or something like this, and they completely fail because they f couldn’t uh understand they they couldn’t look at the really complex problem at a different angle. I think it it uh really hurts, uh especially in the industry of fraud prevention, where as you said, every day there is a new challenge, there is a new way uh fraudsters come up with uh you know uh ways to to defraud customers, and you have to stay humble, you have to always learn and be be open to suggestions.
Julien Laurent:
Do you know that’s so true? Is it a word that I now hate? I used to love it, but I hate it now. Expert. Someone say I’m an expert. Mostly talking of that field when things are moving so fast. I I I almost like it means you haven’t learned enough yet to know how much you don’t know. Uh someone that says to me I’m a specialist, something I specialize on, then you’re like, okay, I can see you’ve you’ve been defeated enough to know that you don’t know everything. Um because they I don’t believe like we are working, you and I are privileged to work with insanely smart person, but they will never come to a table and say, I know everything there is to know. My solution is 100% anyone that says that you politely ask them to finish their coffee and leave the office, right? Because it’s not possible in this way, it moves too fast.
Maxim Baldakov:
Yeah, I agree. Julian, thank you so much for your time. I think it has been great. Thank you for coming and hope to see you in the next episode. So thank you, man.
